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Talk:Backstab
=Current Assumptions/Understandings= I thought this page might benefit from a sort of compilation list of all the points made seperately below. If for nothing else, this list can act as a checklist to test against the actual code, using the toolset, by someone who understands it better than I. Servius 03:31, December 6, 2009 (UTC) * Backstabs can only be performed... ** by a Rogue (other classes can increase their damage by attacking from the flank or rear, but only Rogues can "Backstab") ** using a melee weapon in the main hand (so, 1H swords, axes, maces, or daggers). *** This means it is be possible to Backstab while using a 1-handed weapon and a shield. *** It may be possible to backstab with a 2H weapon, but there is no animation, and increased damage from a flanking/rear attack doesn't necessarily mean a Backstab. The code probably has to be examined to know for sure. ** attacking from the flank/rear (the black area of a target's circle) * For any attack that meets the above conditions, if the hit lands, it's automatically a Backstab. Note that meeting the conditions above does not guarantee a hit, just that any such hit will be a Backstab. * A Backstab does critical damage but it is not a critical hit. The difference is that Backstabs will not shatter a frozen or petrified target. Only critical hits do that. * Only the weapon held in the main hand performs the Backstab. This is clearly visible in the attack animation, but also appears to be true from in-game examinations of damage. ** This means that bonuses on the off-hand weapon do not affect Backstab damage *** There is not yet a consensus about whether or not off-hand weapon bonuses to critical/backstab damage carry over to attacks made by the mainhand weapon. ** This also means it should be possible to cause a critical hit with the off-hand weapon =Backstab with a Mace?= The main page says that one of the requirements for a backstab is the attacker has a melee weapon. Does that mean any weapon, even a 1H mace? Because of the Dex bug, my Rogues are currenly wielding swords in the mainhand. My Rogue has the Green Longsword or something similarly named from Redcliffe, but I don't think there's a bug as I can't seem to backstab with it. Servius 18:33, November 26, 2009 (UTC) In response to your earlier question, yes 1H maces can backstab. Strange I know but there you have it. User:Bassist DaTaco December 4th, 2009 In reference to this page originally saying Rapid Aim bows cannot crit, please take note to the bow named Mage's Eye or even Far Song. Both of which add ranged critical chance, it is the skill Rapid Shooting which does not allow the bow to crit, not the weapon enhancement. Let's not forget each of these weapons also have their very own critical chance percentage included in the basic stats, being 1.60%. This is low, of course, but crits are more than possible.Gustav Flamberge 23:32, November 28, 2009 (UTC) =Backstab with 2H melee weapons?= Is it possible to backstab with a 2H weapon? Apparently, there is no backstabbing animation for 2H weapons. While you do more damage with a 2H (or any) weapon while attacking from the flank/rear, it doesn't necessarily mean it's a Backstab. The only way to know for sure is to look at the code. The description on the Article side only specifies non-staff melee weapons, so it doesn't rule 2H weapons out, but doesn't specifically rule them in either. Servius 14:11, December 6, 2009 (UTC) :I moved the following paragraph from the article, because it seems to contradict the current assumption that you can backstab with any melee weapon. If testing confirms that there is indeed no backstabbing with Two-Handed Weapons (and not just no special animation) we can move it again (after a proper rephrasing and clean up) --M.harmless (talk) 11:57, June 23, 2010 (UTC) : ::"In the rare event that a rouge is equipped with a great sword, they won’t actually backstab but create critical hits, from which if a rouge has 40 points in Dexterity and/or 40 in Strength they are capable of Creating Critical hits that can hit 130+ damage with each hit. Note this was done on a level 12 rouge with 40str, 40dex and 23 cunning, each attack reached 100-180 as the highest, with the assassin specialization with mark of death and lacerate. The actual damage done by a great sword wielding rouge can actually cause more damage than one that’s duel wielding, even though the rouge may seem slower, the amount of damage they create is far more superior than a rouge backstabbing. Note that a rouge using a great sword can not use any talents from the duel wielding/archery skills but can use the rest, such a stealth and dirty fighting which makes opponents stunned for a short period of time, a rouge with the skill coupe de grace wielding a great sword will create automatic critical hits. Funny Fact, each critical hit sounds like thunder when it makes contact. " =Backstabs with Two Weapons= When I backstab with a blade in each hand, My Rogue will only backstab with the main-hand weapon. The off-hand weapon doesn't see,m to be used at all. Coroxn 10:42, January 11, 2010 (UTC) * That's correct. When you backstab while DWing, the animation only shows you backstabbing with the mainhand weapon. I assume that means the damage and bonus damage are both based solely on the mainhand weapon, but it's possible it counts both weapons. My gut tells me it's only counting the mainhand weapon. 14:00, January 11, 2010 (UTC) =Backstab with abilities?= The comment in the code shown on the page and observations made by me, seem to suggest that backstabs are only possible with normal melee attacks and not with activated abilities (at least not with Flurry and Dual-Weapon Sweep). Can somebody confirm? 00:13, December 4, 2009 (UTC) : You are right. I tried it with flurry, dual weapon sweep and deadly strike. Damage didn't deviate from normal.--Riv8 21:11, December 5, 2009 (UTC) Backstab + chance to crit While backstabbing, is it possible to proc a crit? In other words, is it worthwhile to increase "% melee critical chance" if all the rogue does (ideally) is backstab? --Crush. 03:52, December 5, 2009 (UTC) : The impression I have is that you can either backstab or crit, but there is no crit backstab, and any flanking attack results in a backstab. That would mean that the only way for a Rogue to crit would be to attack from the front, and not use any of the talents that specifically forbid crits. Servius 04:13, December 5, 2009 (UTC) :: Hm, interesting. After watching my rogue for a while, I was kind of expecting that, but it's still disappointing. This makes me feel that all those light armor pieces that improve melee crit chance (like Pushback Strikers) are almost useless, since it's almost always possible to get your rogues behind enemies, anyway. What about crow daggers? Does "+15% melee critical damage" affect backstab damage? If not, armor penetration and +dmg seem like the only viable attributes to look for.... --Crush. 07:44, December 5, 2009 (UTC) :::Now that's a good question. I read a post by someone's who actually looked at the entire critical hit/critical damage/backstab/etc. damage calculatin in the toolset and I think what they said was that a backstab does critical damage, but is not a critical hit. The difference is that only a critical hit can shatter frozen or petrified targets. If that's true, then it's possible that gear that increases critical damage will increase backstab damage. Servius 14:37, December 5, 2009 (UTC) =Dual weapons= Ary you backstebbing with one weapon as the animation indicates or do you use both weapons (is it profitable to get a +x% backstab dmg weapon as an off-hand weapon)?--Riv8 10:08, December 5, 2009 (UTC) * I can't confirm it, but I'd imagine it'd still apply, since there are non-weapon pieces of equipment that add things like armor penetration, critical and backstab %, and critical damage. Since you don't stab anybody with your gloves, I'm guessing the bonuses for equipped items are applied to your character, not just the single item they're on.--Hardvice 11:29, December 5, 2009 (UTC) :: I conducted some tests and: ::* 1. Yes, the off hand weapon +x% backstab dmg is included to damage BUT ::* 2. When dual wielding backstab damage is smaller than when wielding single weapon for about 10-15 points.--Riv8 21:09, December 5, 2009 (UTC) *From what i have seen, backstab damage is only calculated with the main weapon. Having equipped 2 weapons with diffrent bonus damage, i.e. ice and fire, during all the backstabs only the bonus from the main-hand showed. --Gotthand 00:44, December 6, 2009 (UTC) Only main-hand runes activateon an-off-hand attack. But you will notice if you remove all +damage runes and use a tier 7 war axe and a tier 1 dagger the damage difference per strike is noticeable. =Tactic or AI Routine to encourage AI-controled party members to move to the backstab area?= One of the things that bugs me with the current Tactics options, and the default AI combat code, is that there does not appear to be a way for NPCs to automatically seek out a position that will grant backstabs. I feel this should be a no brainer, especially since it seems that every class and weapon type does more damage from a flanking attack. It also seems a relatively simple IF/THEN scenario... * If you are not the target of your target * AND * If you can move into a flanking position (you're not immobilized, nor is the flanking position currently blocked by terrain or another NPC) * THEN * Move into flanking position Does anyone know of any mods that either alter the AI to seek out a flanking position automatically, or mods that provide this as a Tactics option? Servius 19:45, December 22, 2009 (UTC)